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Dragons Tongue


Loei

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Goedemorgen mannen,

 

Ik ben nu in het bezit van 3 open messen, ik hoop de collectie natuurlijk nog uit te kunnen breiden,.

Waar ik ook op hoop is om mijn eigen collectie uiteindelijk zelf te kunnen onderhouden/scheerklaar houden.

 

Van wat ik op internet lees is een enkele finisher dan voldoende.

 

Nu mijn vraag:

Er werd mij eerder op dit forum eens getipt naar een Schotse finisher, zodoende kun je oefenen je messen scheerklaar te maken zonder veel geld kwijt te zijn.

Is de onderstaande steen daar een goed voorbeeld van?

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/1-SELLING-63MM-WIDE-NATURAL-RAZOR-HONE-8-10K-DRAGONS-TONGUE-SHARPENING-STONE-/172336307549?hash=item28200b5d5d:m:mSBoYxDcHjTZ4zRgYJauAyw

 

Kijkend naar de prijs zou ik zelf oordelen dat het eigenlijk niet wat kan zijn als ik kijk naar wat een Naniwa bijvoorbeeld kost, maar ik heb geen verstand in de kwaliteitsverschillen tussen slijpstenen.

 

Ik hoop dat iemand hier antwoord op kan geven.

 

Alvast bedankt voor het lezen. :)

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Dat setje van 3 waar Rolf naar linkt is volgens mij prima geschikt om mee scherp te houden. Let wel, houden, niet maken. De 15k is ook wel een mooie zeg. Het fijne van die stenen is ook dat ze lekker breed zijn.Geen gedoe, althans als je rechte messen hebt, met rollende x'en etc.

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Bedankt voor de reactie Rolf en Richard.

Dat soort prijzen zijn wat prettiger voor beginners. :lol:

 

Wat maakt de steen waar jij naar linkt goed? Is er iets waar ik op kan letten?

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Niet laten vallen.

Het zijn relatief nieuwe stenen, worden NU uit de grond gehakt wat betekent dat je er geen vintage-prijzen voor betaalt. De verkoper heeft een goede reputatie, en hij antwoord uitgebreid op vragen, is mijn ervaring en ik heb nog nooit wat van hem gekocht, dus laat staan als je wel klant wordt.

De stenen zijn een mooie trap om te finishen, op zich heb je genoeg aan de 12 en.of 15, maar de en 10 erbij maakt je denk ik wel flexibeler. Het fijne is, ik zei het al, ze zijn lekker breed, dus je hoeft je mes alleen maar op en neer te bewegen. Verder is het belangrijke dat ze zo mooi hoog in "grit" zijn. Dat levert het scheercomfort.

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Dezelfde verkoper is ook op Etsy actief (met goede beoordelingen), en heeft ook daar o.a het setje van 3, en een losse 15K te koop.

Ik vind het erg redelijke prijzen, en als de verkoper zo te horen betrouwbaar is dan denk ik dat je er geen miskoop aan hebt.

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Ik heb een paar jaar geleden de z.g. 15k uitvoering gekocht, het is een vrij harde wetsteen, niet snel maar om een mes bij te houden prima. Die van mij was aan beide kanten behoorlijk vlak toen ik hem kreeg. Ik hoor van anderen dat ze prima resultaten met olie behalen. Zonder olie zal hij een een paar k lager uitkomen dan met water.

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Zonder olie zal hij een een paar k lager uitkomen.

 

Dit snap ik niet helemaal?

 

En welke olie gebruik je dan? (Of kun je ook water gebruiken)

Natuurstenen hebben net, zoals de syntheten, een vaste grit. Een Naniwa 12k heeft gewoon grit 12000 wat je ook doet, terwijl een coticule varieert met de dikte van de slurry, om maar het duidelijkste voorbeeld te geven. Die grit bij natuurstenen varieert dan ook nog al naar gelang welk medium je gebruikt. Je kunt wel zeggen komt ongeveer overeen met 15k.

Een watersteen mag je dan wel niet met olie gebruiken, maar een oliesteen wel met water. Veel mensen doen dat ook, die vinden dat geknoei met olie maar niks. Precies waarom het is weet ik niet, maar gebruik je een oliesteen met water, dan verlaag je de vergelijkbare grit iets. Mijn Charnley Forest bijvoorbeeld komt uit op zo'n 15-16k met water, en moet olie nog wat fijner.

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Iemand die ik erg hoog heb staan kwa kennis is de helaas inmiddels overleden Neil Miller. Hij heeft op TSR een aantal zeer uitgebreide en leesbare stukken gezet over o.a. Natural hones.

Choosing & using a straight razor - part 3 Hones

Hierbij het deel over Welsh slates.

 

Although these are slates, they are mica-rich and it is this to which they owe their honing characteristics. The hone is still mined today in a variety of types. One such is the Dragons Tongue comes with a milled surface from the mine, which is no good for razors - it needs to be lapped. If done properly the surface can become quite "velvety" - you have to see it to understand what I mean. It is a fairly slow stone but increases in speed if used with a slurry. I would rate it at about 8,000 on average - some specimens may be higher, others lower. It does not need to be soaked before use. Other types of welsh honing slate are black, green or purple. Lately some outrageously high grit equivalent figures have been given to these stones. If buying, bear in mind that somewhere around 10k, possible 11k, is the best they are capable of.

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Hoe bepalen jullie de grid ? Is dat door te vergelijken met je andere stenen qua resultaten ?

 

Ik zou zeker de door de verkoper opgegeven grits met een flinke korrel zout nemen. Er zijn mensen die de krassporen onder een microscoop vergelijken maar zelf zou ik afgaan op de scheertest.

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Een van de toppers op het gebied van het slijpen is Sham aka Hibudgl tevens administrator van het Razor & Stone Forum. Hij heeft enkele jaren terug deze stenen getest. Hierbij een copy van zijn bevindingen.

 

Testing Melynllyn,and 2 slate , yellow lake oil stone.

 

I have got 3 stones from our R$S member for testing.

I did hone 3 razors and finished on his stones ,

Early i honed another razor and finished on yellow lake oil stone.

This was great opportunity test all 4 blades by shave test and cmpare results.

This is was grit from seller(he did mention this grit his estimates.

They were

MELYNLLYN(12-15 K)

DRAGONS TONGUE ( 8-10K)

DARK GREEN SLATE (15K+)

Honing done by setting bevel on 1k chosera.

Moving to Natural stones,2k,3k,4k,6k.

In all 3 stones.

At first i test MELYNLLYN.

I MOVED to it afte 6k and made 100 strokes. checked edge it was around 7k level.

I did 100 more strokes and check the edge. There were not much differences.

Shave test pulling .wouldn't use as a finisher. would be very helpful around 6-7k level to

add to your rotation.

Next stone was Dragons tongue.

i moved to it after 6 k and made 50 strokes. Himm nothing change.

ok i made 100 more edge still doesn't make any improvement.

then i thought This should be very fine slow cutting stone.

i used norton 8k and sharpen to it 's max sharpness.

then moved to Dragon tongue and made 200 strokes.

edge did have some changes.

Shave test i felt pulling. wouldn't use as a finisher or as a honing.

Too much work and stone doesn't have any cutting power.

Next up was last dark slate.

Moved to it after 6 k , made 100 strokes nothing is good on the edge.

Went back to 8k Norton and honed. after getting 8k edge moved to this slate.

honed 100 strokes. check the edge. didn't like what i was seeing.

i thought may be i have not make enough strokes on the stone.

Made 100 more check the edge. Edge had small chips.

I always feel blade moving between sand. seems like this stone has some contamination.

Shave test Pulling. wouldn't use as a finisher or any process of straight razor honing.

i Personally think Dragon tongue was better compare to this stone.

Last stone

Yellow lake oil stone. Interesting stone.

wasn't expecting shave will be better then what i expected.

You can use this stone and get ok shave.

it is affordable price if You can go head get it.

Conclusion.

From 4 stones only 2 is useable for straight razor.

1. Melynllyn middle 6-8k level

2. Yellow lake stone as a pre escher or finisher you will have ok shave.

I Thank Greg giving me this opportunity to test those stones .

My Personal opinion about those stones.

Hope this helps.

Sham

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Rolf, ik heb van een tweetal personen, Neil Miller en Sham, informatie naar voren gebracht om een beginnende gebruiker van wetstenen (loei) te waarschuwen dat hij geen wonderen moet verwachten van deze stenen. Ik ben het met je eens dat dit een beetje eenzijdig was.

Als je een ervaren slijper bent en je leert de steen beter kennen is het heel ander verhaal. Yohannrjm komt op een ander forum, The Shave Nook, met zijn bevindingen in zijn "Hone evaluations part 1 - the Welsh Slate hones" tot betere resultaten, welliswaar in progressie van de drie stenen maar toch positief.

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Hierbij een copy van de bevindingen van Yohannrjm

 

I started a 'quest' to evaluate all the hones I have in a (sort of) systematic manner. Some of these have not been used much by me at all, as I stick with my favourites for the most part.

 

All the hones I keep are final polishers (apart from my DMT plates), so first I started off by setting the bevels on two Gold Dollar (GD) razors as recorded here on the nook.

 

-------------------

 

The first set of hones I decided to test are the three Welsh slate hones that are offered by a guy on Ebay. He had them evaluated over at SRP, and then started selling them on Ebay.

 

They consist of:

 

A) The Dragon's Tongue (DT) hone - supposedly the coarsest of the three

 

[image: IMG_20150401_183531.jpg]

 

B) Llyn Melynllyn (LM) hone - medium fine

 

[image: IMG_20150401_183618.jpg]

 

C) Unknown Welsh Slate (UWS) hone (supposedly the finest)

 

[image: IMG_20150401_183557.jpg]

 

------------------

 

I bought these on a whim and have not used them much at all. So it was time to take my GD's and see what these hones could do. The GD's were honed to 8000 grit on DMT plates prior to starting on these hones.

 

EXPERIMENT 1 - Direct finishing on the Llyn Melynllyn (B) and the UWS ( C).

 

I used one razor for each hone.

 

1) Did 50 back-and-forth strokes on milky slurry to see if the scratches from the DMT were polished off.

2) Diluted down to water with 50 X strokes

3) 30 X strokes on water

 

RESULTS: The LM did a fine job of producing a comfortable shaving edge. It was nice on the face, but wasn't too sharp. I need my razors sharper than this, so this would not do. I tried more strokes after this - both on slurry and plain water and the edge did not get sharper.

 

The UWS sharpened the edge quickly and it was pretty smooth shaving, but not quite as comfortable as the LM. It is certainly faster than the LM and was able to polish off the DMT scratches quickly. I think this is a good razor sharpener, but I still haven't got edges that are quite comfortable enough from it. 30 X strokes on this hone on water also sharpened the razor that was finished on the LM - making it clear that it is a finer finisher than the DT.

 

EXPERIMENT 2 - Honing progression

 

This was designed with the consideration that the DT is coarser than the LM which is coarser than the UWS, so a progression from hone to hone was done starting with the DT, then the LM, then the UWS. The same number of strokes was done on each hone. Both razors were first returned to the DMT 1000 for 10 strokes and the DMT 8000 for 30 strokes before starting on the finishers.

 

1) 20 back-and-forth strokes on light slurry

2) 50 X strokes on light slurry

3) 50 X strokes on plain water

 

RESULTS: The DT is certainly fast. After a few strokes, the blade would start sticking to the hone, indicating that the edge was being properly polished. It shaved arm hairs easily at this point, but I still went on to the next hone (LM).

 

The LM didn't seem to do much, but the edge seemed smoother under magnification. Moving on to the UWS added a shine to the edge, but some scratches showed as well. It was certainly sharp.

 

One razor was stopped at this point. The second was returned to the LM on water to see if the LM would smooth out the UWS edge without losing sharpness. HHT showed the two to be about the same sharpness.

 

So at this point, this was the progression on the two razors:

 

A) bevel - DT - LM - UWS

B) bevel - DT - LM - UWS - LM(water only)

 

I haven't shaved with the razors yet after experiment 2. We'll see how it works.

 

EDIT: There are several comprehensive threads on these hones over on SRP. Look them up, if you're interested.

 

UPDATE:

 

First shave with the two razors (yes, I used both of them) from Experiment 2 was done today.

 

Razor A) (Bevel - DT - LM - UWS) - This was certainly shave-sharp, and didn't have any of the bite that I noticed when I skipped the DR and LM. This edge matched a Thuringian edge and was slightly less sharp than an edge polished on a good Charnley Forest. It was also quite comfortable.

 

Razor B) (Bevel - DT - LM - UWS - LM) was brilliant! Smoother than A) and as sharp. Even ATG, it was comfortable and was a real pleasure to use.

 

VERDICT: After one shave it's really too early for a final verdict, but these hones surprised me. The edges were equal to anything I can get off a natural hone. Razor B) in particular was just so smooth that I was quite blown away.

 

It seems like the progression is really the way to go with these hones. The LM doesn't have the cutting power of the other two, but puts a really comfy polish on the blades (on pure water).

 

There are also more experiments to be done to see if I can squeeze something more from these hones. There are suggestions that finishing on oil gives better results. I'll see if this is the case. Given that these are pretty cheap hones, I am really pleased with the finish they give. I have seen some bad reviews of them, but the ones I received certainly provide a smooth shaving edge that's also very keen. I think there may be a bit of snobbery creeping into the reviews. It's also possible that all the hones sold are not consistent.

 

Had another shave today with the second razor (B - finished on the LM). It was just a phenomenal shave!

 

[image: IMG_20150403_081647.jpg]

 

What I noticed is that this razor is really sharp, while still having an edge that I didn't have to worry about. Some hones produce edges that are equally sharp, but you know that a small error will result in a nick. The best edges (for me) to shave with are the ones that will 'cut hair, not skin'. These are edges that seem to be more forgiving on skin. I usually get my coticule edges to this point and some of the edges off my Oozuku Namito Karasu.

 

This razor was sharp enough for me to wonder if ATG touch-ups were necessary after I had done my WTG and XTG passes. I did them and the shave was really close.

 

I really wasn't expecting anything like this off these slates, but they really surprised me.

 

I used Pinaud Clubman VI Bay Rum as my aftershave today. People who use it know that it can burn like the fires of hell if the shave was even slightly harsh. Today, I just received a gentle burn - indicating that the shave really was smooth. 7 hours later, my face is still smooooth.

 

This is unfortunate, as I was expecting these hones to not meet my 'keeping' criteria and I was going to list them for sale. Now they've made it hard for me to get rid of them. Smile

 

Tried these hones on a non-GD razor (a lovely French razor this time). The edge was superb. Perhaps a little harsher than the GD edge, but I limited myself to 30 strokes on each hone.

 

Anyway, I am satisfied with these hones - the combination of excellent edges and very affordable price makes them a really good option for people who are just moving into natural hones and who don't want to shell out a lot of money for an Escher etc. In fact, I don't think you lose too much by using these instead of an Escher. I'll be trying these razors on my vintage Thuringian (a proven finisher) to see if the edges improve - just to see if it has any advantage over these.

 

Using my vintage Thuringian (a good one) after these hones didn't improve the edge noticeably. My thuri is a pretty good one (though there certainly may be better ones out there), and I was expecting some more keenness from the hone, but it was imperceptible if it did make an improvement.

 

For now, I rate the edge off these hones on par with my thuri. Pretty good, given the price difference.

 

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